Cyclist "brought back from dead three times" after accident at the Laindon Centre

Cyclist

Cyclist "brought back from dead three times" after accident

First published in Echo News
Last updated

A MAN is fighting for his life after an horrific bicycle accident which saw onlookers rush to save him.

The man, in his twenties, landed on his head and fell unconscious in the Laindon Centre yesterday.

Two bystanders rushed to give the man CPR and witnesses said they brought him back to life before ambulance and air ambulance crews rushed to the scene to administer a defibrillator.

They took him to the Co-operative car park, when he stopped breathing twice more, before airlifting him to specialist brain injury hospital Royal London.

Linda Lane, 57, manager at the Haemlin Trust shop, said: "They must have been working on him for 45 minutes here, then I don’t know how long in the car park when he was moved closer to the ambulance.

“I heard paramedics say ‘he’s flat-lined’ three times.

The two ladies worked really hard on him. But I could see the breath go out of him, he was grey.”

It is thought the man had just had his hair cut and was cycling away through the centre at about 9.45am.

Mrs Lane said: “One of the ladies who gave first aid said she heard a bike stop behind her then heard a crack.

“One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions.

I asked if they needed help, because they looked like they were getting tired, but they said they were OK.

“It was awful. Once he went to the ambulance they were in shock. They were distraught.”

Jacqui Newshan, manager of XS Stocks, said: “All was quiet and then this happened. I called the ambulance from here.

“It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, as a man was getting instructions from the 999 operator.

“There was a group of people all just standing there. It was like time stood still while everyone just hoped he would wake up.”

Police cordoned off the area and investigated the man’s fall.

Irene Valiquette, 58, who works at Fish’n’Chick’n said: “It has shaken the whole centre.

This is our little community.

It was horrible to see. We all hope he’s OK.”

Police have described the man’s condition as “serious”.

Comments (38)

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11:32am Tue 7 Jan 14

Howard Cháse says...

Well done to the members of public that came to this man's assistance.


Best wishes to him for a full and quick recovery.
Well done to the members of public that came to this man's assistance. Best wishes to him for a full and quick recovery. Howard Cháse
  • Score: 67

12:24pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Kim Gandy says...

I hope he makes a complete recovery. Well done everybody!

I must now do a First Aid refresher and renew my certificate...
I hope he makes a complete recovery. Well done everybody! I must now do a First Aid refresher and renew my certificate... Kim Gandy
  • Score: 37

3:00pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Nowthatsworthknowing says...

Thats where a helmet comes into it's own
Thats where a helmet comes into it's own Nowthatsworthknowing
  • Score: 19

4:18pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Letmetryagain says...

Kim Gandy wrote:
I hope he makes a complete recovery. Well done everybody!

I must now do a First Aid refresher and renew my certificate...
Yes, I did mine about 35 yrs ago.
[quote][p][bold]Kim Gandy[/bold] wrote: I hope he makes a complete recovery. Well done everybody! I must now do a First Aid refresher and renew my certificate...[/p][/quote]Yes, I did mine about 35 yrs ago. Letmetryagain
  • Score: 8

4:58pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

I was very concerned to read this:

“One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions.

Then, this:

“It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’,


lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous.

Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both.

l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers! Almeda11
  • Score: 28

5:31pm Tue 7 Jan 14

NotFromEssex says...

Almeda11 wrote:
I was very concerned to read this:

“One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions.

Then, this:

“It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’,


lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous.

Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both.

l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive.

Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced.

Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing.

A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing.

Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved. NotFromEssex
  • Score: 13

6:08pm Tue 7 Jan 14

beejiu says...

Almeda11 wrote:
I was very concerned to read this:

“One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions.

Then, this:

“It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’,


lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous.

Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both.

l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
The rule of thumb I've heard for the public is, if you are in doubt, start CPR. Since the paramedics said he had flat lined, and administered CPR by instruction of the defibrillator, it seems quite clear that he did need CPR. The first aider's actions have probably saved his life. It is quite common for untrained persons to misread pulse -- they read their own pulse rather than the patients. This is why it is not recommended for the public to check for a pulse.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]The rule of thumb I've heard for the public is, if you are in doubt, start CPR. Since the paramedics said he had flat lined, and administered CPR by instruction of the defibrillator, it seems quite clear that he did need CPR. The first aider's actions have probably saved his life. It is quite common for untrained persons to misread pulse -- they read their own pulse rather than the patients. This is why it is not recommended for the public to check for a pulse. beejiu
  • Score: 14

6:42pm Tue 7 Jan 14

whataday says...

Hope he makes a full recovery.
Hope he makes a full recovery. whataday
  • Score: 3

10:13pm Tue 7 Jan 14

wakering gal says...

I can guarantee you didn't hear the paramedics ever say the words 'he has flatlined!' It's not a term any medics actually ever would use it's not Holby!!
I can guarantee you didn't hear the paramedics ever say the words 'he has flatlined!' It's not a term any medics actually ever would use it's not Holby!! wakering gal
  • Score: 7

10:34pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

beejiu wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
The rule of thumb I've heard for the public is, if you are in doubt, start CPR. Since the paramedics said he had flat lined, and administered CPR by instruction of the defibrillator, it seems quite clear that he did need CPR. The first aider's actions have probably saved his life. It is quite common for untrained persons to misread pulse -- they read their own pulse rather than the patients. This is why it is not recommended for the public to check for a pulse.
Yes he flatlined, but we don`t know why do we? it could well be because he was given heart massage when he didn`t need it and that can be very dangerous as already stated.

The facts are that we, as a society, are not very knowledgable about first aid, l personally think it should in all schools to children over the age of 10.
[quote][p][bold]beejiu[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]The rule of thumb I've heard for the public is, if you are in doubt, start CPR. Since the paramedics said he had flat lined, and administered CPR by instruction of the defibrillator, it seems quite clear that he did need CPR. The first aider's actions have probably saved his life. It is quite common for untrained persons to misread pulse -- they read their own pulse rather than the patients. This is why it is not recommended for the public to check for a pulse.[/p][/quote]Yes he flatlined, but we don`t know why do we? it could well be because he was given heart massage when he didn`t need it and that can be very dangerous as already stated. The facts are that we, as a society, are not very knowledgable about first aid, l personally think it should in all schools to children over the age of 10. Almeda11
  • Score: -1

10:52pm Tue 7 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right!

The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging.

You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again.

You also say this, and l quote:

"the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing."

ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG.
lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good.

ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
[quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !! Almeda11
  • Score: -1

12:02am Wed 8 Jan 14

NotFromEssex says...

Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right!

The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging.

You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again.

You also say this, and l quote:

"the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing."

ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG.
lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good.

ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross.
org.uk/What-we-do/Fi
rst-aid/Everyday-Fir
st-Aid/Unconscious-a
nd-not-breathing

St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u
k/sja/first-aid-advi
ce/life-saving-proce
dures/cpr-for-adults
.aspx

European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/
index.php/doclibrary
/en/209/1/ - specifically page 4.

Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org
.uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17.

"Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals"

Many thanks.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks. NotFromEssex
  • Score: 6

7:32am Wed 8 Jan 14

LastLaugh2 says...

Howard Cháse wrote:
Well done to the members of public that came to this man's assistance.


Best wishes to him for a full and quick recovery.
Mustnt cycle on these paths, might have huert a baby, idiot really
[quote][p][bold]Howard Cháse[/bold] wrote: Well done to the members of public that came to this man's assistance. Best wishes to him for a full and quick recovery.[/p][/quote]Mustnt cycle on these paths, might have huert a baby, idiot really LastLaugh2
  • Score: 0

9:17am Wed 8 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again,

Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT.

l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo.
l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City.

ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
[quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition. Almeda11
  • Score: -9

12:35pm Wed 8 Jan 14

The Stinker Returns says...

I am not familiar with the area and I am well aware that someone has been seriously injured. What does concern me is this: was he cycling on a pedestrian walkway and had to stop because he nearly hit a person? It may be irrelevant and I am genuinely sorry he is injured, however, I am constantly almost being hit by cyclists in London and I have seen this happen
I am not familiar with the area and I am well aware that someone has been seriously injured. What does concern me is this: was he cycling on a pedestrian walkway and had to stop because he nearly hit a person? It may be irrelevant and I am genuinely sorry he is injured, however, I am constantly almost being hit by cyclists in London and I have seen this happen The Stinker Returns
  • Score: 2

3:32pm Wed 8 Jan 14

Jodaius says...

Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again,

Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT.

l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo.
l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City.

ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong.

You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis.

At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not.

There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org
.uk/pages/glalgos.ht
m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross.
org.uk/What-we-do/Fi
rst-aid/Everyday-Fir
st-Aid/Unconscious-a
nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse.

To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight. Jodaius
  • Score: 4

6:41pm Wed 8 Jan 14

kwhite89 says...

this is my partner u are all talkin about and all he done was got on his bike and had a heart attack thats y he fell off so i dnt wish to see anyone else say anythin bad about him
this is my partner u are all talkin about and all he done was got on his bike and had a heart attack thats y he fell off so i dnt wish to see anyone else say anythin bad about him kwhite89
  • Score: 8

6:43pm Wed 8 Jan 14

kwhite89 says...

this is my partner u are all commentin about and the reason he fell off his bike is because he had a heart attack so anyone makin negative comments about him is askin for trouble as he done nothing wrong and is fighting for his life
this is my partner u are all commentin about and the reason he fell off his bike is because he had a heart attack so anyone makin negative comments about him is askin for trouble as he done nothing wrong and is fighting for his life kwhite89
  • Score: 5

9:28pm Wed 8 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help.

Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second.

They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output.

You also contradict yourself, you say, quote;

"At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse "

but you then go on to say:

"To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice."

So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know.

l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!!

You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are.

That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
[quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!! Almeda11
  • Score: -4

9:19am Thu 9 Jan 14

Barry Bas says...

Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks.

In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained. Barry Bas
  • Score: 6

10:12am Thu 9 Jan 14

sarahmcmenemy says...

I used to think you couldnt give compressions if a heart is beating so asked about it few months ago at my first aid refresher course and was told the techniques change every year as they keep reviewing the best way to keep people alive etc. I was told you are not to check for a pulse as it wastes time and it is best to start compressions if the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Im not saying this is the case but a qualified doctor may not have been updated on the latest procedures for first aid, which you would assume would be done but you never know nowadays!

Whatever the case may be, in a situation like that and you are not sure, call 999 and they will guide you over the phone.

I wish the young lad a speedy recovery and thank God there were people willing to help
I used to think you couldnt give compressions if a heart is beating so asked about it few months ago at my first aid refresher course and was told the techniques change every year as they keep reviewing the best way to keep people alive etc. I was told you are not to check for a pulse as it wastes time and it is best to start compressions if the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Im not saying this is the case but a qualified doctor may not have been updated on the latest procedures for first aid, which you would assume would be done but you never know nowadays! Whatever the case may be, in a situation like that and you are not sure, call 999 and they will guide you over the phone. I wish the young lad a speedy recovery and thank God there were people willing to help sarahmcmenemy
  • Score: 4

11:41am Thu 9 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

Barry Bas wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy .

To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -)
and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes.

l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be.

With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm.

ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.!
and THAT is an important ommission.!!

BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both.

As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..
[quote][p][bold]Barry Bas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.[/p][/quote]My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views.. Almeda11
  • Score: -3

1:40pm Thu 9 Jan 14

wickdi says...

Almeda11 wrote:
Barry Bas wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy .

To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -)
and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes.

l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be.

With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm.

ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.!
and THAT is an important ommission.!!

BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both.

As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..
Iv been taught to follow DR ABC
Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk
Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious)
Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing
Breathing - Can they breath on there own
Circulation - Any bleeding wounds

If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath.

http://heart.arizona
.edu/frequently-aske
d-questions

"The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally."

Hope that helps.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Barry Bas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.[/p][/quote]My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..[/p][/quote]Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps. wickdi
  • Score: 4

1:40pm Thu 9 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

sarahmcmenemy wrote:
I used to think you couldnt give compressions if a heart is beating so asked about it few months ago at my first aid refresher course and was told the techniques change every year as they keep reviewing the best way to keep people alive etc. I was told you are not to check for a pulse as it wastes time and it is best to start compressions if the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Im not saying this is the case but a qualified doctor may not have been updated on the latest procedures for first aid, which you would assume would be done but you never know nowadays! Whatever the case may be, in a situation like that and you are not sure, call 999 and they will guide you over the phone. I wish the young lad a speedy recovery and thank God there were people willing to help
Sarah, my nephew is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, , in July, last year, and he, says that is is NEVER right to try to restart a heart that is still beating, it is NOT necessary, and could be dangerous.

lt seems, as l stated towards the end of this page, that views/procedure change with first aid courses and l prefer to believe a doctor, or nurse, any day over a first aider.
[quote][p][bold]sarahmcmenemy[/bold] wrote: I used to think you couldnt give compressions if a heart is beating so asked about it few months ago at my first aid refresher course and was told the techniques change every year as they keep reviewing the best way to keep people alive etc. I was told you are not to check for a pulse as it wastes time and it is best to start compressions if the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Im not saying this is the case but a qualified doctor may not have been updated on the latest procedures for first aid, which you would assume would be done but you never know nowadays! Whatever the case may be, in a situation like that and you are not sure, call 999 and they will guide you over the phone. I wish the young lad a speedy recovery and thank God there were people willing to help[/p][/quote]Sarah, my nephew is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, , in July, last year, and he, says that is is NEVER right to try to restart a heart that is still beating, it is NOT necessary, and could be dangerous. lt seems, as l stated towards the end of this page, that views/procedure change with first aid courses and l prefer to believe a doctor, or nurse, any day over a first aider. Almeda11
  • Score: -4

1:41pm Thu 9 Jan 14

Jodaius says...

Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
I have given plenty of evidence to support my post, unlike you, who's only evidence appears to be 'I'm related to some doctors and I did a First Aid course 15 years ago'.

You appear to be incapable of reading. Firstly, I did not say that an adult not breathing needs compressions. What I said was that the latest official advice is that, if an adult is not breathing, compressions should be started without wasting time looking for a pulse. There is a subtle difference. You might not agree with this, but this is the official advice whether you like it or not.

Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer. I assume you know the difference.

It's particularly ironic that you accuse me of being someone who always wants to be right even when the facts are against me. The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]I have given plenty of evidence to support my post, unlike you, who's only evidence appears to be 'I'm related to some doctors and I did a First Aid course 15 years ago'. You appear to be incapable of reading. Firstly, I did not say that an adult not breathing needs compressions. What I said was that the latest official advice is that, if an adult is not breathing, compressions should be started without wasting time looking for a pulse. There is a subtle difference. You might not agree with this, but this is the official advice whether you like it or not. Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer. I assume you know the difference. It's particularly ironic that you accuse me of being someone who always wants to be right even when the facts are against me. The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions. Jodaius
  • Score: 6

1:54pm Thu 9 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

wickdi wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Barry Bas wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..
Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.
Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you.

l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart.
He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,.

Hope THIS helps !

By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!!
[quote][p][bold]wickdi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Barry Bas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.[/p][/quote]My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..[/p][/quote]Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.[/p][/quote]Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you. l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart. He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,. Hope THIS helps ! By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!! Almeda11
  • Score: -4

2:37pm Thu 9 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
I have given plenty of evidence to support my post, unlike you, who's only evidence appears to be 'I'm related to some doctors and I did a First Aid course 15 years ago'. You appear to be incapable of reading. Firstly, I did not say that an adult not breathing needs compressions. What I said was that the latest official advice is that, if an adult is not breathing, compressions should be started without wasting time looking for a pulse. There is a subtle difference. You might not agree with this, but this is the official advice whether you like it or not. Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer. I assume you know the difference. It's particularly ironic that you accuse me of being someone who always wants to be right even when the facts are against me. The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions.
Jodaius, Your Quote; see above,

"Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer."

But THEN you say;

" I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice".


So, which is it to be?

They are obviously and clearly, completely at odds with one another, which can mean only 1 thing !!! l certainly take someone like that seriously.

And you also say:

"The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions. "

HA, HA, the FACTS !!!! WHAT facts? There are NONE. First aid sites, particularly if they vary are not as reliable, or a substitute for Qualified medical advice.

If you bother to read my latest comments you will see that someone else on here has already said that different first aid courses have different procedures sometimes, read it !

And YOU are not very observant, as well as being sarcastic are you?

You have the cheek to say " l assume you can read" when in fact you obviously can`t as you`ve stated that l did my course FIFTEEN years ago, when in fact l clearly said FIVE !! BIG difference.

And l also did NOT say l " knew some doctors" What l ACTUALLY said was that my NEPHEW was a doctor, and recently qualified.
Do try to be a bit more discerning and thorough in what you read or THINK you see!!!

First aid courses vary in their advice, Medical practices are more stable and only change for a good reason.

The CURRENT thinking is still;

lf heart massage is needed, artificial respiration is also needed. Often artificial respiration is called for WITHOUT the need for heart massage.

But heart massage itself is NEVER given alone, the rule for the first aider is that WHENEVER the heart beating has stopped so has breating, and he/she must reactivate both.

Strange, you accuse me of wanting to be right, but you also want the same, but the REAL facts, ie from the medical establishment from qualified people are the only ones that l am interested in!
[quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]I have given plenty of evidence to support my post, unlike you, who's only evidence appears to be 'I'm related to some doctors and I did a First Aid course 15 years ago'. You appear to be incapable of reading. Firstly, I did not say that an adult not breathing needs compressions. What I said was that the latest official advice is that, if an adult is not breathing, compressions should be started without wasting time looking for a pulse. There is a subtle difference. You might not agree with this, but this is the official advice whether you like it or not. Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer. I assume you know the difference. It's particularly ironic that you accuse me of being someone who always wants to be right even when the facts are against me. The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions.[/p][/quote]Jodaius, Your Quote; see above, "Also as a minor point, I stated that I have had First Aid training (which I have, very recently), but that I am not a trainer." But THEN you say; " I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice". So, which is it to be? They are obviously and clearly, completely at odds with one another, which can mean only 1 thing !!! l certainly take someone like that seriously. And you also say: "The facts have been presented by a number of people with a number of sources, which all back up my comments - yet you still refuse to admit that you are wrong. My impression is that you would rather continue to spread inaccurate information that swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. Very sad. Fortunately any intelligent people reading this will be able to look at the sources quoted and come to their own conclusions. " HA, HA, the FACTS !!!! WHAT facts? There are NONE. First aid sites, particularly if they vary are not as reliable, or a substitute for Qualified medical advice. If you bother to read my latest comments you will see that someone else on here has already said that different first aid courses have different procedures sometimes, read it ! And YOU are not very observant, as well as being sarcastic are you? You have the cheek to say " l assume you can read" when in fact you obviously can`t as you`ve stated that l did my course FIFTEEN years ago, when in fact l clearly said FIVE !! BIG difference. And l also did NOT say l " knew some doctors" What l ACTUALLY said was that my NEPHEW was a doctor, and recently qualified. Do try to be a bit more discerning and thorough in what you read or THINK you see!!! First aid courses vary in their advice, Medical practices are more stable and only change for a good reason. The CURRENT thinking is still; lf heart massage is needed, artificial respiration is also needed. Often artificial respiration is called for WITHOUT the need for heart massage. But heart massage itself is NEVER given alone, the rule for the first aider is that WHENEVER the heart beating has stopped so has breating, and he/she must reactivate both. Strange, you accuse me of wanting to be right, but you also want the same, but the REAL facts, ie from the medical establishment from qualified people are the only ones that l am interested in! Almeda11
  • Score: -3

3:02pm Thu 9 Jan 14

wickdi says...

Almeda11 wrote:
wickdi wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Barry Bas wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..
Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.
Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you.

l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart.
He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,.

Hope THIS helps !

By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!!
You have not provided any evidence other than hearsay and as for not having time to arguing with people you seem to be managing pretty well. I never claimed to be a professional or that I know it all, I simply gave information about my own training. Within a Doctors training you may be correct about chest compression while a heart is beating but I truly doubt that as if a person is not breathing that is the priority.Perhaps First Aid training is slightly different from a doctors training as it is the basic's of life preservation.
What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is?
I am personally am a trained first aid with St John Ambulance service and I am first aid at worked trained with the SOS bus.
[quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]wickdi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Barry Bas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.[/p][/quote]My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..[/p][/quote]Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.[/p][/quote]Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you. l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart. He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,. Hope THIS helps ! By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!![/p][/quote]You have not provided any evidence other than hearsay and as for not having time to arguing with people you seem to be managing pretty well. I never claimed to be a professional or that I know it all, I simply gave information about my own training. Within a Doctors training you may be correct about chest compression while a heart is beating but I truly doubt that as if a person is not breathing that is the priority.Perhaps First Aid training is slightly different from a doctors training as it is the basic's of life preservation. What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is? I am personally am a trained first aid with St John Ambulance service and I am first aid at worked trained with the SOS bus. wickdi
  • Score: 4

4:45pm Thu 9 Jan 14

really? says...

Firstly this gentlemans partner has asked for the argument to stop so please respect her.

Secondly and to achieve my first point you are both right because you are talking about different things.

A doctor, when referring to restart a heart means exactly that and a defribrillator is generally used for this to initially stop the heart in a hope that it restarts with the correct rhythm. To attempt to restart a heart with cpr is almost impossible.

CPR is used in first aid to maintain the flow of oxygenated blood around the body to keep the person in the best possible condition until a proffesional arrives with a defibrillator.

You are both having different arguments.
Firstly this gentlemans partner has asked for the argument to stop so please respect her. Secondly and to achieve my first point you are both right because you are talking about different things. A doctor, when referring to restart a heart means exactly that and a defribrillator is generally used for this to initially stop the heart in a hope that it restarts with the correct rhythm. To attempt to restart a heart with cpr is almost impossible. CPR is used in first aid to maintain the flow of oxygenated blood around the body to keep the person in the best possible condition until a proffesional arrives with a defibrillator. You are both having different arguments. really?
  • Score: 2

4:54pm Thu 9 Jan 14

really? says...

People need to remember that journalists wording of reports are not always based on knowledge of the topic they are talking about. I myself have been mis quoted and I am sure flatlining in this situation was never said as it is an american tern mainly used in hollywood. He would have either had no output or much more likely an issue with his heart rhythm.

A "heart attack" is not a stopping of the heart it is most often an issue with the rhythm. Therefore waiting for the heart to stop would be negtive to the persons health. If they are not breathing due to the hearts rhythm then the heart will stop as it cannot survive without breathing.

The two women in this story saved the mans life - FACT!!!!

I only hope that no-one is put off from doing CPR due to the comments on this thread and I would urge the echo to delete all of them.
People need to remember that journalists wording of reports are not always based on knowledge of the topic they are talking about. I myself have been mis quoted and I am sure flatlining in this situation was never said as it is an american tern mainly used in hollywood. He would have either had no output or much more likely an issue with his heart rhythm. A "heart attack" is not a stopping of the heart it is most often an issue with the rhythm. Therefore waiting for the heart to stop would be negtive to the persons health. If they are not breathing due to the hearts rhythm then the heart will stop as it cannot survive without breathing. The two women in this story saved the mans life - FACT!!!! I only hope that no-one is put off from doing CPR due to the comments on this thread and I would urge the echo to delete all of them. really?
  • Score: 6

9:13pm Thu 9 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

wickdi wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
wickdi wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Barry Bas wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
Jodaius wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote:
NotFromEssex wrote:
Almeda11 wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers!
Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.
Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !!
Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.
Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.
Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!!
Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.
My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..
Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.
Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you. l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart. He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,. Hope THIS helps ! By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!!
You have not provided any evidence other than hearsay and as for not having time to arguing with people you seem to be managing pretty well. I never claimed to be a professional or that I know it all, I simply gave information about my own training. Within a Doctors training you may be correct about chest compression while a heart is beating but I truly doubt that as if a person is not breathing that is the priority.Perhaps First Aid training is slightly different from a doctors training as it is the basic's of life preservation. What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is? I am personally am a trained first aid with St John Ambulance service and I am first aid at worked trained with the SOS bus.
This was the whole point l have been trying to make all along, about a Doctors training, and chest compressions, and glad it is recognised at last !!

lf they`re not breathing this can be because the heart has stopped, and THAT is when they do cpr on an unconscious patient.

lf the patient is not breathing but still has a heartbeat then it is not necessary to do chest compressions.

Re , the time, well l MAKE the time if it`s something l believe in, and l am always busy, too busy at times, but l feel, that out of respect for the family of this man, who are distressed at reading this we should stop, as suggested by Really? and l am not a fan of this long winded " quoting" either, the page goes on forever, and there has been no clear indication, on my laptop at least where one person`s comment ends and another begins, it`s all a grey blur, normally they have a different colour for a reply.
[quote][p][bold]wickdi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]wickdi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Barry Bas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jodaius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NotFromEssex[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Almeda11[/bold] wrote: I was very concerned to read this: “One was giving him mouth-to- mouth and the other was giving him chest compressions. Then, this: “It was very scary. The lady giving first aid was saying ‘I’m losing his pulse’, lt is a basic rule of First Aid NEVER to give heart massage if the heart is still beating -- which his evidently was, till it became weaker, and to do so can be very dangerous. Atificial respiration , for when someone has stopped breathing can be given alone, but when the heart has stopped beating so has breathing, and the first aider has to reactivate both. l sincerely hope this young man eventually recovers![/p][/quote]Amazing job by the members of the public, all too often we hear of people collapsing and suffering a cardiac arrest and people just stand by and watch, you don't need a first aid certificate to do CPR - all the advice and instructions you need will be given by the Ambulance Services when you make the 999 call - this will be given over the phone to you and someone will stay on the life with with you until the crew arrive. Almeda11, this only discourages people from performing CPR - within First Aid, the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing. A healthcare professional, such as a Paramedic/Nurse/Dr etc will be competent in check for a pulse and checking different sites for pulses and as such may not do chest compressions if the patient is only in a respiratory arrest. But its advised that members of the public should start doing chest compressions is the patient is unresponsive and not breathing. Hope he recovers, and well done to all involved.[/p][/quote]Hi, l really don`t believe my comment will, or should discourage anyone, but my main concern is that people know what they are doing, ie the CORRECT procedure, and get it right! The facts are that it IS dangerous to try to restart the heart when it is still beating, and the more people that know this the better. lt should be ENcouraging to know this, NOT discouraging. You say you don`t need a certificate and that the paramedics can talk you through, true, and it`s good no one will dispute that., but there is no substitute for having practised, time and time again. You also say this, and l quote: "the basic rule is now that if the patient is in a collapsed state, with no signs of life (unconscious and not breathing) then chest compressions should be commenced. Don't be afraid to do compressions, even if you don't want to do reduce breaths - chest compressions is better than nothing." ldon`t know where you got this information from, or the " basic rule" but it is WRONG. lt is DANGEROUS to do chest compressions on anyone if their heart is still beating, and can do more damage than good. ONLY if the heart has stopped beating is it safe to do chest compressions, and you say, in the same paragraph, that doctors or other trained people may well not do chest compressions, that is precisely because they ARE knowledgable enough to know when they are really needed and beneficial, or when they could do damage !![/p][/quote]Hello, Thank you for your reply. My comments regarding starting CPR on an unconscious not breathing patient are echoed by online public access information for British Red Cross - http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing St John Ambulance - http://www.sja.org.u k/sja/first-aid-advi ce/life-saving-proce dures/cpr-for-adults .aspx European Resuscitation Guidelines https://www.erc.edu/ index.php/doclibrary /en/209/1/ - specifically page 4. Resuscitation Council UK Guidelines - http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/GL2010.pdf - specifically page 15 & 17. "Guidelines 2000 introduced the concept of checking for ‘signs of a circulation’. This change was made because of the evidence that relying on a check of the carotid pulse to diagnose cardiac arrest is unreliable and time-consuming, mainly, but not exclusively, when attempted by non-healthcare professionals" Many thanks.[/p][/quote]Hallo again, Well then, show me a quote from any of the sources you have quoted that state that it is right or safe to carry out chest compressions on a patient who still has a heartbeat ! You won`t ! Sorry, much as you would like to be right on this you ARE NOT. l am from a medical family, my mother was a nurse, and my nephew recently qualified as a doctor. l myself took a First Aid course years ago, and have an "O" level in Human Biology, and have had articles published, so l think l know more than the average Jo. l also make it my business to keep up with the latest developments in medicine and science, and, as someone pointed out on here this is not Holby City. ln my opinion, First Aid should be taught in all the schools in the land, from 10 years of age, l believe it is compulsory in some countries in Europe already, or so l read a while ago, but would be a very good addition.[/p][/quote]Almeda11, you are wrong. You have said yourself that you did First Aid 'years ago'. If you know half as much about First Aid as you seem to think you do, you will know that procedures and advice are updated on a very regular basis. At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse - if an adult is not breathing, then compressions should be started straight away. I deliberately use the word 'adult' as I know there are different procedures for children with which I am less familiar, so I don't know if it's the same or not. There is plenty of information available to support this if you took the time to look. In particular I would direct you to the Adult Basic Life Support algorithm published by the UK Resuscitation Council, which you can find at http://www.resus.org .uk/pages/glalgos.ht m. You can also see a step-by-step guide from the Red Cross at http://www.redcross. org.uk/What-we-do/Fi rst-aid/Everyday-Fir st-Aid/Unconscious-a nd-not-breathing, which again instructs compressions to start without checking for a pulse. To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice. I would always encourage people to have their own training, and not rely on things they have heard second or third hand. I am only posting this as I am concerned about the impact of somebody repeatedly posting incorrect information, and wanted to set the record straight.[/p][/quote]Sorry but it is you who are wrong not me. My nephew tells me the same thing and he is a Doctor !! I did my course around 5 years ago and we were taught NEVER to try to start a beating heart, if it is still beating it needs no further help. Your quote above about an adult not breathing needing compressions is, again, wrong. An adult who is not breating needs artificial respiration, the first 5 breaths as quickly as possibe, thereafter around 1 per second. They do NOT, repeat, not, needs heart massage, UNLESS there is no cardiac output. You also contradict yourself, you say, quote; "At the last training I had a few months ago I was told very clearly not to waste time trying to check for a pulse " but you then go on to say: "To anyone else reading this, I am not a First Aid trainer, and I am therefore not in a position to offer First Aid advice." So, where was your " training" done then if you are not a first aider? please let me know. l find your argument very suspicious, and for someone who " is not in a position" to give it, you seem to be offering plenty!! You come across very strongly as someone who always wants to be right, even when the facts are against them, and they are. That is not commendable, just arrogant as well as ignorant, and you think you know better than a Doctor -- unbelievable!![/p][/quote]Not wanting to cause an arguement but when I checked the websites mentioned above it certainly does not tell you to check for a pulse on someone who is unconcious and not breathing. I did a first aid course about 15 years ago and at that time we were told to check for a pulse, so I assume who ever sets these guidelines decided that the benefits outweighs the risks. In defence of Jodaius (though I'm sure they don't need me to defend them) they did say that they are not a "Trainer" ie not an instructor, not that they are not trained.[/p][/quote]My reply is to both you and sarahmcmenemy . To you, first; Don`t worry about causing an argument, there is already one going on between me and the person who as " not fromsouthend!! -) and l believe we have been talking at cross purposes. l looked on the websites he provided, the Red Cross in particular and they are not very precise, which in first aid it is very important to be. With regard to the person in the video actually having chest pains nothing much was suggested apart from call an ambulance and keep the person calm. ln the Red Cross video ---see l did watch it -person not from southend!--.they just said do chest compressions for a person who wasn`t breathing,but they did NOT indicate whether his heart was beating or not.! and THAT is an important ommission.!! BUT, IF the heart HAS stopped beating, then so always will breathing and THEN it is right to re-activate both. As said re the courses, they seem to change their views/prodecure from time to time or depending on whoever is offering the course, which to me is completely unreliabe and confusing, we don`t need multiple ways, there is always one best way and one basic rule, which is do not try to re-start a heart which is still beating,, so l will stick to what l and the medical profession state, not different first aid courses with differing views..[/p][/quote]Iv been taught to follow DR ABC Danger - Make sure you are not putting your self at any risk Response - Can the person hear you, feel you or react to you in any way (unconscious) Air ways - Is anything blocking there breathing Breathing - Can they breath on there own Circulation - Any bleeding wounds If they are not breathing administer CPR imitatively as they wont survive long with out oxygen. Heart beating or not, they need to breath. http://heart.arizona .edu/frequently-aske d-questions "The physicians and scientists at the Sarver Heart Center, have found that the old saying "Never perform CPR on beating heart" is not valid. According to these professionals, the chances that a bystander could harm a person by pressing on their chest are slim to none, even if the heart is working normally." Hope that helps.[/p][/quote]Yes, this is an American website, and l will check it out, BUT l could equally find you another 1 or more that say the opposite. l don`t know how reliable this website is, many aren`t but l will look WHEN l have more time, l am not in the position, or have the inclination, to sit at my laptop all day, as l do not like spending too much time in a virtual world, arguing with people who are not professional but think they know it all, like you. l believe my nephew when he says it is not necessary to give this treatment to a beating heart. He is a NEWLY qualified Doctor, last year, so fully up to date with all the latest techniques, both in first aid, heart attacts, strokes, biochemistry, pharmacology ect, ect, ect,. Hope THIS helps ! By the way, What are YOUR qualificatins !!!![/p][/quote]You have not provided any evidence other than hearsay and as for not having time to arguing with people you seem to be managing pretty well. I never claimed to be a professional or that I know it all, I simply gave information about my own training. Within a Doctors training you may be correct about chest compression while a heart is beating but I truly doubt that as if a person is not breathing that is the priority.Perhaps First Aid training is slightly different from a doctors training as it is the basic's of life preservation. What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is? I am personally am a trained first aid with St John Ambulance service and I am first aid at worked trained with the SOS bus.[/p][/quote]This was the whole point l have been trying to make all along, about a Doctors training, and chest compressions, and glad it is recognised at last !! lf they`re not breathing this can be because the heart has stopped, and THAT is when they do cpr on an unconscious patient. lf the patient is not breathing but still has a heartbeat then it is not necessary to do chest compressions. Re , the time, well l MAKE the time if it`s something l believe in, and l am always busy, too busy at times, but l feel, that out of respect for the family of this man, who are distressed at reading this we should stop, as suggested by Really? and l am not a fan of this long winded " quoting" either, the page goes on forever, and there has been no clear indication, on my laptop at least where one person`s comment ends and another begins, it`s all a grey blur, normally they have a different colour for a reply. Almeda11
  • Score: -4

1:36am Fri 10 Jan 14

proops says...

I am the lady who did CPR. I am horrified and appalled at what should be comments page of well-wishers has instead been used for ignorant idiotic comments and for someone to continuously and needlessly argue their point when actually their point is wrong and been shown to be!
The long winded posts have done nothing in encouraging others to take the step in attempting to help others in distress, which is what I'd been hoping would come out of this tragic incident.
On top of that some comments have been made with total disregard for the family and their feelings!
I have absolutely no intention of going into details of the incident out of respect for him and his family. Its unecessary.
Alls I will say is he ABSOLUTELY required CPR!!! Prior to the paramedics arrival and actually DURING!!!
As for any 'quotes'? Take them as you will.
I would just add and plead that for anyone reading this post, please please dont be afraid. Dont be put off. Take any opportunity that comes to learn First Aid. However, even if the opportunity never arise, if you ever find yourself in the position of being faced with somebody down and possibly needing CPR ( and you will know, trust me!) Be brave, remember the Vinnie Jones advert and go for it! It could make all the difference.
To the man and his family - I'm thinking of you every moment. I send you all my love, thoughts and prayers. Please god hes home with you soon xxxxx
I am the lady who did CPR. I am horrified and appalled at what should be comments page of well-wishers has instead been used for ignorant idiotic comments and for someone to continuously and needlessly argue their point when actually their point is wrong and been shown to be! The long winded posts have done nothing in encouraging others to take the step in attempting to help others in distress, which is what I'd been hoping would come out of this tragic incident. On top of that some comments have been made with total disregard for the family and their feelings! I have absolutely no intention of going into details of the incident out of respect for him and his family. Its unecessary. Alls I will say is he ABSOLUTELY required CPR!!! Prior to the paramedics arrival and actually DURING!!! As for any 'quotes'? Take them as you will. I would just add and plead that for anyone reading this post, please please dont be afraid. Dont be put off. Take any opportunity that comes to learn First Aid. However, even if the opportunity never arise, if you ever find yourself in the position of being faced with somebody down and possibly needing CPR ( and you will know, trust me!) Be brave, remember the Vinnie Jones advert and go for it! It could make all the difference. To the man and his family - I'm thinking of you every moment. I send you all my love, thoughts and prayers. Please god hes home with you soon xxxxx proops
  • Score: 12

1:02pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Firestormgjc says...

I think the issue is around the term being used "re-starting the Heart"

Ok , my First responder training was a few years ago, but my Red cross training was only last year.

You do not try and "re-start" a heart if there is a pulse, correct,,,but this only applies to a defibrillator and not to CPR as one applies a shock to "restart" the heart where as CPR is effectively pumping the heart by hand and is nothing to do with restarting it

For a patient not breathing CPR is vital as it assists in the circulation of oxygen around the body thus prolonging the patients chances.

The Red Cross do not advise spending time searching for a pulse and just getting on with the CPR if the patient is not breating
I think the issue is around the term being used "re-starting the Heart" Ok , my First responder training was a few years ago, but my Red cross training was only last year. You do not try and "re-start" a heart if there is a pulse, correct,,,but this only applies to a defibrillator and not to CPR as one applies a shock to "restart" the heart where as CPR is effectively pumping the heart by hand and is nothing to do with restarting it For a patient not breathing CPR is vital as it assists in the circulation of oxygen around the body thus prolonging the patients chances. The Red Cross do not advise spending time searching for a pulse and just getting on with the CPR if the patient is not breating Firestormgjc
  • Score: 2

2:31pm Fri 10 Jan 14

niki-loo says...

whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet?

my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers.
whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet? my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers. niki-loo
  • Score: 1

2:35pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Firestormgjc says...

niki-loo wrote:
whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet? my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers.
More people die of head injuries falling over than do from head injuries whilst cycling.
Would you expect pedestrians to wear helmets ?
[quote][p][bold]niki-loo[/bold] wrote: whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet? my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers.[/p][/quote]More people die of head injuries falling over than do from head injuries whilst cycling. Would you expect pedestrians to wear helmets ? Firestormgjc
  • Score: 1

9:57pm Sat 11 Jan 14

Almeda11 says...

Wick di, in answer to your question, which l felt l should answer.
What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is?

Just artificial respiration.
Wick di, in answer to your question, which l felt l should answer. What do you believe to be the correct reaction to someone who can not breath but has a heart beat is? Just artificial respiration. Almeda11
  • Score: -2

10:16pm Sat 11 Jan 14

niki-loo says...

Firestormgjc wrote:
niki-loo wrote:
whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet? my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers.
More people die of head injuries falling over than do from head injuries whilst cycling.
Would you expect pedestrians to wear helmets ?
no, i do not because pedestrians are not travelling at speeds of 20-30mph!! helmets can save lives, i dont understand why people constantly refute this. is your hairstyle worth more than your life?
[quote][p][bold]Firestormgjc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]niki-loo[/bold] wrote: whilst this has been fascinating reading ive got to say this poor mans accident has reinforced my belief that EVERY cyclist needs to wear a helmet. when i see people cycling without them i shudder. Would you not wear a seatbelt in a car? would you not make your child wear a helmet? my thoughts go out to this man and his family and i hope he recovers.[/p][/quote]More people die of head injuries falling over than do from head injuries whilst cycling. Would you expect pedestrians to wear helmets ?[/p][/quote]no, i do not because pedestrians are not travelling at speeds of 20-30mph!! helmets can save lives, i dont understand why people constantly refute this. is your hairstyle worth more than your life? niki-loo
  • Score: 2

8:16pm Fri 17 Jan 14

bazza 1 says...

kwhite89 wrote:
this is my partner u are all commentin about and the reason he fell off his bike is because he had a heart attack so anyone makin negative comments about him is askin for trouble as he done nothing wrong and is fighting for his life
Hope he makes a full recovery from his heart attack, and is back home with you very soon. Please don't get upset over comments on here. Most of the bad ones are from people who don't have an original of their own. God bless you and your family.
[quote][p][bold]kwhite89[/bold] wrote: this is my partner u are all commentin about and the reason he fell off his bike is because he had a heart attack so anyone makin negative comments about him is askin for trouble as he done nothing wrong and is fighting for his life[/p][/quote]Hope he makes a full recovery from his heart attack, and is back home with you very soon. Please don't get upset over comments on here. Most of the bad ones are from people who don't have an original of their own. God bless you and your family. bazza 1
  • Score: 1

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